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发表于 2020-1-7 15:17 | 只看该作者 回帖奖励 |倒序浏览 |阅读模式
应急操舵和规范里面讲的辅助操舵,是一回事吗?
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龙船五分快三
2
发表于 2020-1-7 18:21 来自手机 | 只看该作者
     应该不是。
    辅助操舵是指驾驶室操舵失灵改为在舵机室接受电话指令操舵(类同用车钟指令机舱操控主机)。
     应急操舵是指用舵机舱操控箱系统也失灵,改用手动油缸或手操控电磁换向阀直接操舵。
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3
发表于 2020-1-8 08:00 | 只看该作者
liu老师讲的也忒好了
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4
发表于 2020-1-8 09:54 | 只看该作者
留得残荷听雨声 发表于 2020-1-7 18:21
应该不是。
    辅助操舵是指驾驶室操舵失灵改为在舵机室接受电话指令操舵(类同用车钟指令机舱操控主 ...

错了,不懂别误人子弟。有时间好好看看SOLAS
舵机包括主舵机和辅助舵机,从液压泵站开始,所有管路,液压阀们,油缸,都是两套,互为备份。即使有一套坏了,另一套还好用。
舵机和舵机遥控是2个系统,当舵机遥控系统坏了,就需要驾驶室和舵机本地操作员通过电话控制舵机,这就是应急操舵。
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5
发表于 2020-1-8 18:41 | 只看该作者
sanshandaobojue 发表于 2020-1-8 09:54
错了,不懂别误人子弟。有时间好好看看SOLAS
舵机包括主舵机和辅助舵机,从液压泵站开始,所有管路,液 ...


   我只是谈点自己看法,既没有引"经"也没有据"典",就此说我"...误人子弟"恐怕是太抬举我了。
    你上句说舵机分为主舵机和辅助舵机,下句又叉开扯上从油泵开始就分为两套系统互为备份,而对何为辅助操舵的概念只字不提,这种逻辑混乱的表述好像不是你之前惯用的风格(互为备用是配置 辅助操舵是方法 这两者有关联吗)。
    更甚者你把电话指令舵机室操舵(具体如何操控无表述)称为应急操舵,这种"草莽要义"让人如何认同(请亮出依据)。
   我对主操舵、辅助操舵、应急操舵的理解为:
   1/在驾驶室操舵台操舵的称为遥控也就是主操舵;
   2/在舵机室用控制箱操舵的称为直控(箱上有直控/驾控旋钮类同主机旁控制箱)也就是辅助操舵;
    3/脱离操舵控制箱的手动操控电磁阀本体或直接操控手压换向油缸(如有的话)工况可称之为应急操舵(上述2和3验船师都是要看的),因此三者是有明显区别的。
     楼主问的是辅助操舵和应急操舵有否区别(或说是否是一回事),因此我解释了上帖。至于公约是如何界定的没有看(如有必要可查一下规范),你既已知不妨简略一述以飨读者,包括辅助舵机和辅助操舵的概念等。
   你前期的帖子一向是份量十足(经历阅历可贵),有的可谓是"字字珠玑"(以前帖中曾对你多有赞赏),这次不知如何如此唐突。
    讨论问题最好采用"立论"(与之对应的是驳论)方法,只诠释自己的观点即可。别人如有不对不必先用"驳论"回击,读者在弄懂了你的立论后会自行辨别且无需"伤人",希望你能审慎开来,再看到你继往的"出彩"。
      
6
发表于 2020-1-9 14:04 | 只看该作者
留得残荷听雨声 发表于 2020-1-8 18:41
我只是谈点自己看法,既没有引"经"也没有据"典",就此说我"...误人子弟"恐怕是太抬举我了。
    你 ...

主操舵系统The main steering gear
辅助操舵系统The auxiliary steering gear
应急舵 emergency steering

没那么复杂,这不是个人可以自由发挥的部分。重要的是规范,看看SOLAS关于舵机那一部分,看完了再来讨论。
我们通常说的舵机包括主操舵和辅助操舵,从外观上看这2套东西是一模一样的,互相独立互相备用。
舵机遥控系统是独立于舵机的,一旦遥控不好用了,就要应急操舵,应急操舵通过电话,驾驶室下达舵角指令,操作人员在舵机旁边,观察舵角和分罗经进行操作。类似的当主机遥控坏了,也要人在主机机旁操作。
20年前刚毕业的小孩子进设计院,首先要熟悉SOLAS,最基础的东西,而且不能看中文的翻译的太垃圾了,一定要看英文原版。看完了SOLAS和MARPOL,才能开始动手画图,当时花了3个月啥也不干,就是看规范,号称是“天书”,“天书”系统的读,看明白了,才能跟着师傅改总布置图。
International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1974 as amended by the 1981 and 2014 Amendments


CHAPTER II-1 CONSTRUCTION - STRUCTURE, SUBDIVISION AND STABILITY, MACHINERY AND ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS
PART C MACHINERY INSTALLATIONS
Regulation 29 Steering gear *
__________
*    Refer to Improved steering gear standards for passenger and cargo ships (resolution A.415(XI)) and Examination of steering gears on existing tankers (resolution A.416(XI)).
For ships constructed from 1984-09-01. However, see 19-20; Retroactive requirements for tankers
Subjects:
1-2 General/design criteria
3 Main steering gear. 3.2 retroactive requirements regardless of date of construction
4 Auxiliary steering gear. 4.2 retroactive requirements regardless of date of construction
5-6 Power units
7-9 Steering gear control system
10-11 Communication / rudder indicator
12 Hydraulic power-operated steering gear
13 Steering gear compartment
14 Alternative power supply
15 Multiple power units (specific requirements for tankers, chemical tankers and gas carriers > 10,000 t and other ship > 70,000 t)
16-18 Double power actuating systems (specific requirements for tankers, chemical tankers and gas carriers > 10,000 t)
19-20 Retroactive requirements applicable to existing tankers constructed before 1984-09-01
See IMO-Vega Note for amendments



1. Unless expressly provided otherwise, every ship shall be provided with a main steering gear and an auxiliary steering gear to the satisfaction of the Administration. The main steering gear and the auxiliary steering gear shall be so arranged that the failure of one of them will not render the other one inoperative.
2.1 All the steering gear components and the rudder stock shall be of sound and reliable construction to the satisfaction of the Administration. Special consideration shall be given to the suitability of any essential component which is not duplicated. Any such essential component shall, where appropriate, utilize anti-friction bearings such as ball bearings, roller bearings or sleeve bearings which shall be permanently lubricated or provided with lubrication fittings.
2.2 The design pressure for calculations to determine the scantlings of piping and other steering gear components subjected to internal hydraulic pressure shall be at least 1.25 times the maximum working pressure to be expected under the operational conditions specified in paragraph 3.2, taking into account any pressure which may exist in the low pressure side of the system. At the discretion of the Administration, fatigue criteria shall be applied for the design of piping and components, taking into account pulsating pressures due to dynamic loads.
2.3 Relief valves shall be fitted to any part of the hydraulic system which can be isolated and in which pressure can be generated from the power source or from external forces. The setting of the relief valves shall not exceed the design pressure. The valves shall be of adequate size and so arranged as to avoid an undue rise in pressure above the design pressure.
3 The main steering gear and rudder stock shall be:
.1     of adequate strength and capable of steering the ship at maximum ahead service speed which shall be demonstrated;
.2     capable of putting the rudder over from 35 degrees on one side to 35 degrees on the other side with the ship at its deepest seagoing draught and running ahead at maximum ahead service speed and, under the same conditions, from 35 degrees on either side to 30 degrees on the other side in not more than 28 seconds;
        where it is impractical to demonstrate compliance with this requirement during sea trials with the ship at its deepest seagoing draught and running ahead at the speed corresponding to the number of maximum continuous revolutions of the main engine and maximum design pitch, ships regardless of date of construction may demonstrate compliance with this requirement by one of the following methods:
.1       during sea trials the ship is at even keel and the rudder fully submerged whilst running ahead at the speed corresponding to the number of maximum continuous revolutions of the main engine and maximum design pitch; or
.2       where full rudder immersion during sea trials cannot be achieved, an appropriate ahead speed shall be calculated using the submerged rudder blade area in the proposed sea trial loading condition. The calculated ahead speed shall result in a force and torque applied to the main steering gear which is at least as great as if it was being tested with the ship at its deepest seagoing draught and running ahead at the speed corresponding to the number of maximum continuous revolutions of the main engine and maximum design pitch; or
.3       the rudder force and torque at the sea trial loading condition have been reliably predicted and extrapolated to the full load condition. The speed of the ship shall correspond to the number of maximum continuous revolutions of the main engine and maximum design pitch of the propeller;
.3     operated by power where necessary to meet the requirements of paragraph 3.2 and in any case when the Administration requires a rudder stock of over 120 mm diameter in way of the tiller, excluding strengthening for navigation in ice; and
.4     so designed that they will not be damaged at maximum astern speed; however, this design requirement need not be proved by trials at maximum astern speed and maximum rudder angle.
4 The auxiliary steering gear shall be:
.1     of adequate strength and capable of steering the ship at navigable speed and of being brought speedily into action in an emergency,
.2     capable of putting the rudder over from 15 degrees on one side to 15 degrees on the other side in not more than 60 seconds with the ship at its deepest seagoing draught and running ahead at one half of the maximum ahead service speed or 7 knots, whichever is the greater;
        where it is impractical to demonstrate compliance with this requirement during sea trials with the ship at its deepest seagoing draught and running ahead at one half of the speed corresponding to the number of maximum continuous revolutions of the main engine and maximum design pitch or 7 knots, whichever is greater, ships regardless of date of construction, including those constructed before 1 January 2009, may demonstrate compliance with this requirement by one of the following methods:
.1       during sea trials the ship is at even keel and the rudder fully submerged whilst running ahead at one half of the speed corresponding to the number of maximum continuous revolutions of the main engine and maximum design pitch or 7 knots, whichever is greater; or
.2       where full rudder immersion during sea trials cannot be achieved, an appropriate ahead speed shall be calculated using the submerged rudder blade area in the proposed sea trial loading condition. The calculated ahead speed shall result in a force and torque applied to the auxiliary steering gear which is at least as great as if it was being tested with the ship at its deepest seagoing draught and running ahead at one half of the speed corresponding to the number of maximum continuous revolutions of the main engine and maximum design pitch or 7 knots, whichever is greater; or
.3       the rudder force and torque at the sea trial loading condition have been reliably predicted and extrapolated to the full load condition; and
.3     operated by power where necessary to meet the requirements of paragraph 4.2 and in any case when the Administration requires a rudder stock of over 230 mm diameter in way of the tiller, excluding strengthening for navigation in ice.
5 Main and auxiliary steering gear power units shall be:
.1     arranged to re-start automatically when power is restored after a power failure; and
.2     capable of being brought into operation from a position on the navigating bridge. In the event of a power failure to any one of the steering gear power units, an audible and visual alarm shall be given on the navigating bridge.
6.1 Where the main steering gear comprises two or more identical power units, an auxiliary steering gear need not be fitted, provided that:
.1     in a passenger ship, the main steering gear is capable of operating the rudder as required by paragraph 3.2 while any one of the power units is out of operation;
.2     in a cargo ship, the main steering gear is capable of operating the rudder as required by paragraph 3.2 while operating with all power units;
.3     the main steering gear is so arranged that after a single failure in its piping system or in one of the power units the defect can be isolated so that steering capability can be maintained or speedily regained.
6.2 The Administration may, until 1 September 1986, accept the fitting of a steering gear which has a proven record of reliability but does not comply with the requirements of paragraph 6.1.3 for a hydraulic system.
6.3 Steering gears, other than of the hydraulic type, shall achieve standards equivalent to the requirements of this paragraph to the satisfaction of the Administration.
7 Steering gear control shall be provided:
.1     for the main steering gear, both on the navigating bridge and in the steering gear compartment;
.2     where the main steering gear is arranged in accordance with  paragraph 6, by two independent control systems, both operable from the navigating bridge. This does not require duplication of the steering wheel or steering lever. Where the control system consists of an hydraulic telemotor, a second independent system need not be fitted, except in a tanker, chemical tanker or gas carrier of 10,000 gross tonnage and upwards;
.3     for the auxiliary steering gear, in the steering gear compartment and, if power operated, it shall also be operable from the navigating bridge and shall be independent of the control system for the main steering gear.
8.  Any main and auxiliary steering gear control system operable from the navigating bridge shall comply with the following:
.1     if electric, it shall be served by its own separate circuit supplied from a steering gear power circuit from a point within the steering gear compartment, or directly from switchboard busbars supplying that steering gear power circuit at a point on the switchboard adjacent to the supply to the steering gear power circuit;
.2     means shall be provided in the steering gear compartment for disconnecting any control system operable from the navigating bridge from the steering gear it serves,
.3     the system shall be capable of being brought into operation from a position on the navigating bridge;
.4     in the event of a failure of electrical power supply to the control system, an audible and visual alarm shall be given on the navigating bridge, and
.5     short circuit protection only shall be provided for steering gear control supply circuits
9       The electric power circuits and the steering gear control systems with their associated components, cables and pipes required by this regulation and by regulation 30 shall be separated as far as is practicable throughout their length.
10 A means of communication shall be provided between the   navigating bridge and the steering gear compartment.
11 The angular position of the rudder shall:
.1     if the main steering gear is power operated, be indicated on the navigating bridge. The rudder angle indication shall be independent of the steering gear control system;
.2     be recognizable in the steering gear compartment.
12 Hydraulic power-operated steering gear shall be provided with the following:
.1     arrangements to maintain the cleanliness of the hydraulic fluid taking into consideration the type and design of the hydraulic system;
.2     a low level alarm for each hydraulic fluid reservoir to give the earliest practicable indication of hydraulic fluid leakage. Audible and visual alarms shall be given on the navigating bridge and in the machinery space where they can be readily observed; and
.3     a fixed storage tank having sufficient capacity to recharge at least one power actuating system including the reservoir, where the main steering gear is required to be power operated. The storage tank shall be permanently connected by piping in such a manner that the hydraulic systems can be readily recharged from a position within the steering gear compartment and shall be provided with a contents gauge.
13    The steering gear compartment shall be:
.1     readily accessible and, as far as practicable, separated from machinery spaces; and
.2     provided with suitable arrangements to ensure working access to steering gear machinery and controls. These arrangements shall include handrails and gratings or other non-slip surfaces to ensure suitable working conditions in the event of hydraulic fluid leakage.
14 Where the rudder stock is required to be over 230 mm diameter in way of the tiller, excluding strengthening for navigation in ice, an alternative power supply, sufficient at least to supply the steering gear power unit which complies with the requirements of paragraph 4.2 and also its associated control system and the rudder angle indicator, shall be provided automatically, within 45 seconds, either from the emergency source of electrical power or from an independent source of power located in the steering gear compartment. This independent source of power shall be used only for this purpose. In every ship of 10,000 gross tonnage and upwards, the alternative power supply shall have a capacity for at least 30 minutes of continuous operation and in any other ship for at least 10 minutes.
15 In every tanker, chemical tanker or gas carrier of 10,000 gross tonnage and upwards and in every other ship of 70,000 gross tonnage and upwards, the main steering gear shall comprise two or more identical power units complying with the provisions of paragraph 6.
16 Every tanker, chemical tanker or gas carrier of 10,000 gross tonnage and upwards shall, subject to paragraph 17, comply with the following:
.1     the main steering gear shall be so arranged that in the event of loss of steering capability due to a single failure in any part of one of the power actuating systems of the main steering gear, excluding the tiller, quadrant or components serving the same purpose, or seizure of the rudder actuators, steering capability shall be regained in not more than 45 seconds after the loss of one power actuating system;
.2     the main steering gear shall comprise either:
.2.1   two independent and separate power actuating systems, each capable of meeting the requirements of paragraph 3.2; or
.2.2   at least two identical power actuating systems which, acting simultaneously in normal operation, shall be capable of meeting the requirements of paragraph 3.2. Where necessary to comply with this requirement, inter-connexion of hydraulic power actuating systems shall be provided. Loss of hydraulic fluid from one system shall be capable of being detected and the defective system automatically isolated so that the other actuating system or systems shall remain fully operational;
.3     steering gears other than of the hydraulic type shall achieve equivalent standards.
17 For tankers, chemical tankers or gas carriers of 10,000 gross tonnage and upwards, but of less than 100,000 tonnes deadweight, solutions other than those set out in paragraph 16, which need not apply the single failure criterion to the rudder actuator or actuators, may be permitted provided that an equivalent safety standard is achieved and that:
.1     following loss of steering capability due to a single failure of any part of the piping system or in one of the power units, steering capability shall be regained within 45 seconds; and
.2     where the steering gear includes only a single rudder actuator, special consideration is given to stress analysis for the design including fatigue analysis and fracture mechanics analysis, as appropriate, to the material used, to the installation of sealing arrangements and to testing and inspection and to the provision of effective maintenance. In consideration of the foregoing, the Administration shall adopt regulations which include the provisions of the Guidelines for Acceptance of Non-Duplicated Rudder Actuators for Tankers, Chemical Tankers and Gas Carriers of 10,000 Gross Tonnage and Above but Less than 100,000 Tonnes Deadweight, adopted by the Organization *
_____________
* Refer to resolution A.467(XII).

18 For a tanker, chemical tanker or gas carrier of 10,000 gross tonnage and upwards, but less than 70,000 tonnes deadweight, the Administration may, until 1 September 1986, accept a steering gear system with a proven record of reliability which does not comply with the single failure criterion required for a hydraulic system in paragraph 16.
19 Every tanker, chemical tanker or gas carrier of 10,000 gross tonnage and upwards, constructed before 1 September 1984, shall comply, not later than 1 September 1986, with the following:
.1     the requirements of paragraphs 7.1, 8.2, 8.4, 10, 11, 12.2, 12.3 and 13.2;
.2     two independent steering gear control systems shall be provided each of which can be operated from the navigating bridge. This does not require duplication of the steering wheel or steering lever;
.3     if the steering gear control system in operation fails, the second system shall be capable of being brought into immediate operation from the navigating bridge; and
.4     each steering gear control system, if electric, shall be served by its own separate circuit supplied from the steering gear power circuit or directly from switchboard busbars supplying that steering gear power circuit at a point on the switchboard adjacent to the supply to the steering gear power circuit.
20 In addition to the requirements of paragraph 19, in every tanker, chemical tanker or gas carrier of 40,000 gross tonnage and upwards, constructed before 1 September 1984, the steering gear shall, not later than 1 September 1988, be so arranged that, in the event of a single failure of the piping or of one of the power units, steering capability can be maintained or the rudder movement can be limited so that steering capability can be speedily regained. This shall be achieved by:
.1     an independent means of restraining the rudder; or
.2     fast acting valves which may be manually operated to isolate the actuator or actuators from the external hydraulic piping together with a means of directly refilling the actuators by a fixed independent power-operated pump and piping system, or
  .3     an arrangement such that, where hydraulic power systems are interconnected, loss of hydraulic fluid from one system shall be detected and the defective system isolated either automatically or from the navigating bridge so that the other system remains fully operational.


CHAPTER II-1 CONSTRUCTION - STRUCTURE, SUBDIVISION AND STABILITY, MACHINERY AND ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS
PART C MACHINERY INSTALLATIONS
Regulation 30 Additional requirements for electric and electrohydraulic steering gear
For ships constructed from 1984-09-01. See also IMO-Vega Note



1   Means for indicating that the motors of electric and electrohydraulic steering gear are running shall be installed on the navigating bridge and at a suitable main machinery control position.
2   Each electric or electrohydraulic steering gear comprising one or more power units shall be served by at least two exclusive circuits fed directly from the main switchboard; however, one of the circuits may be supplied through the emergency switchboard. An auxiliary electric or electrohydraulic steering gear associated with a main electric or electrohydraulic steering gear may be connected to one of the circuits supplying this main steering gear. The circuits supplying an electric or electrohydraulic steering gear shall have adequate rating for supplying all motors which can be simultaneously connected to them and may be required to operate simultaneously.
3   Short circuit protection and an overload alarm shall be provided for such circuits and motors. Protection against excess current, including starting current, if provided, shall be for not less than twice the full load current of the motor or circuit so protected, and shall be arranged to permit the passage of the appropriate starting currents. Where a three-phase supply is used an alarm shall be provided that will indicate failure of any one of the supply phases. The alarms required in this paragraph shall be both audible and visual and shall be situated in a conspicuous position in the main machinery space or control room from which the main machinery is normally controlled and as may be required by regulation 51.
4   When in a ship of less than 1,600 gross tonnage an auxiliary steering gear which is required by regulation 29.4.3 to be operated by power is not electrically powered or is powered by an electric motor primarily intended for other services, the main steering gear may be fed by one circuit from the main switchboard. Where such an electric motor primarily intended for other services is arranged to power such an auxiliary steering gear, the requirement of paragraph 3 may be waived by the Administration if satisfied with the protection arrangement together with the requirements of regulation 29.5.1 and.2 and 29.7.3 applicable to auxiliary steering gear.


CHAPTER V SAFETY OF NAVIGATION
Regulation 26 Steering gear: Testing and drills
For new and existing ships. Applicable from 2002-07-01



1      Within 12 hours before departure, the ship's steering gear shall be checked and tested by the ship's crew. The test procedure shall include, where applicable, the operation of the following:
.1     the main steering gear;
.2     the auxiliary steering gear;
.3     the remote steering gear control systems;
.4     the steering positions located on the navigation bridge;
.5     the emergency power supply;
.6     the rudder angle indicators in relation to the actual position of the rudder;
.7     the remote steering gear control system power failure alarms;
.8     the steering gear power unit failure alarms; and
.9     automatic isolating arrangements and other automatic equipment.
2      The checks and tests shall include:
.1     the full movement of the rudder according to the required capabilities of the steering gear;
.2     a visual inspection for the steering gear and its connecting linkage; and
.3     the operation of the means of communication between the navigation bridge and steering gear compartment.
3.1    Simple operating instructions with a block diagram showing the change-over procedures for remote steering gear control systems and steering gear power units shall be permanently displayed on the navigation bridge and in the steering compartment.
3.2    All ships' officers concerned with the operation and/or maintenance of steering gear shall be familiar with the operation of the steering systems fitted on the ship and with the procedures for changing from one system to another.
4      In addition to the routine checks and tests prescribed in paragraphs 1 and 2, emergency steering drills shall take place at least once every three months in order to practise emergency steering procedures. These drills shall include direct control within the steering gear compartment, the communications procedure with the navigation bridge and, where applicable the operation of alternative power supplies.
5      The Administration may waive the requirements to carry out the checks and tests prescribed in paragraphs 1 and 2 for ships which regularly engage on voyages of short duration. Such ships shall carry out these checks and tests at least once every week.
6      The date upon which the checks and tests prescribed in paragraphs 1 and 2 are carried out and the date and details of emergency steering drills carried out under paragraph 4, shall be recorded.




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发表于 2020-1-17 18:47 来自手机 | 只看该作者
    自八日帖回复后,自感觉上述概念属感性理解没有依据,故总想查阅规范一探究竟。今日看该帖发现,伯爵将原九日帖做了修改增加了整篇英文内容,但仍未直达要点(复制再多的英语原文不是目的 重要的是点对点的中文诠释)。
    笔者根据《钢规》2009第三篇十三章对主/辅操舵装置给出了定义(应急操舵无定义),对楼主的疑惑进行解读:
1、主/辅操舵系统是配置故称装置;应急操舵是处置上两装置故障的临时操控方法;因此主/辅操舵装置都存在应急操舵工况(见13.1.2.1;13.1.10)。
2、上三者对操舵的要求不一样,主/辅操舵装置均是指舵效时间。主操舵-满载最大航速28s(65度舵角);辅助操舵-满载半速(>7节)60s(30度舵角);应急操舵工况是指-受令至实际至转舵时间<45s(见13.1.5.2;13.1.5.3;13.10.2-1;13.10.3-1)。
3、在舵机采用两套动力装置时,可免设辅助操舵系统。因此现在电-液舵船舶中辅助操舵装置大多是不存在(设置辅助操舵装置成本也不低且舵效差)。故没有辅助操舵工况一说(见13.1.5.6)。
4、主操舵装置包括驾控和直控(就地控)两种工况。因此,在舵机舱受令用遥控箱操舵同属主操舵的直控工况。此既不是辅助操舵也不属应急操舵(见13.1.8.1-1)。
5、对于电-液舵机而言,应急操舵工况只能理解为因主操舵系统失灵(电气控制系统故障)改由手动操控电磁换向阀的实施过程。
根据上述印证,我之前表述将就地操舵理解为辅助操舵属错误,而手动操控电磁换向阀为应急操舵的概念是对的。
,关于ccs规范的"垃圾"一事伯爵以前多次提及,笔者以为与其不断发牢骚何不有理有据的将各"垃圾"规整编一个《...规范翻译勘误表》贴出来以正视听,同时也宣示一下自己的"真实力"。像这样得空就"宣泄"此除了给"嘴过生日"外不能再证明五分快三。
     规范上述的英文出处依据是否就属楼上复制的内容不知,如该章节也属"垃圾"请详细匡正。
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 楼主| 发表于 2020-1-18 14:55 | 只看该作者
留得残荷听雨声 发表于 2020-1-17 18:47
自八日帖回复后,自感觉上述概念属感性理解没有依据,故总想查阅规范一探究竟。今日看该帖发现,伯爵将 ...

学习了,多谢。
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